license
Feodor2 opened this issue · 654 comments
I know in general that with opensource code anybody can do whatever they want. But i may be do not know something and with this particular code too. I ask someone who knows better to check if its alright from this side.
well you should be safe to use Palemoon for your fork unless Palemoon go's with a different license or you brake the license between Firefox and Palemoon by making it "Closed source" but it mostly depends on the situation and problem.
Form my perspective Palemoon is jealous because Mypal has more users than Palemoon but that's their fault for not supporting WinXP machines
Also "MyPal" is your property so they can't tell you what to do with it, They(Palemoon) made their browser Open Source soo they are the one to put the blame on at first place.
As i understand they took code from the firefox and not allowed to go closed source, and this is fair. They continues take new code pieces from the firefox mostly.
Today i noticed moonchild put his name on few specific files
https://github.com/MoonchildProductions/UXP/blob/master/dom/media/webaudio/blink/HRTFDatabaseLoader.cpp
i why wonder why he did this, and what does this mean. Does he declare these files his property?
As i understand they took code from the firefox and not allowed to go closed source, and this is fair. They continues take new code pieces from the firefox mostly.
Today i noticed moonchild put his name on few specific files
https://github.com/MoonchildProductions/UXP/blob/master/dom/media/webaudio/blink/HRTFDatabaseLoader.cpp
i why wonder why he did this, and what does this mean. Does he declare these files his property?
Honestly what's their problem with you?? can't they just go bully and be j*rks to other developers?.
Tell them(Them = MoonchildProductions) to come back when they start to support Windows XP and 98/ME.
Both browsers target different platforms(OS) and have nothing to do when it comes to trying to get more PC users, also if they are licensing it as open source they can't do a thing to you without making their code Closed Source at first place.
TL:DR: MoonchildProductions have no right to sue you as long as their code is Open Source, And if the code you are using is Open Source with the same license.
TL:DR2: MoonchildProductions can go and sit down and shut up until they find a valid reason to sue you or make problems with you.
Honestly what's their problem with you??
There always was half-allusions and threats but never they never tell strict though, i think that they do not like greatly i publish my alternative browser.
I was just curious why he put his name inside some particular files, cant he put his name inside every file?
Hey folks
Enviouses not going to leave us. Today they they fall upon me all together. Please elaborate may be i do not get something.
Feodor2/Centaury#41
I think the source code is well available for anyone and can take it to do anything.
Please read and understand the MPL 2.0 thoroughly. If you have trouble understanding it, get legal counsel.
For example:
I know in general that with opensource code anybody can do whatever they want.
This is incorrect. it is not Public Domain.
TL:DR: MoonchildProductions have no right to sue you as long as their code is Open Source, And if the code you are using is Open Source with the same license.
This is only true if and and for so long as the Open Source license is adhered to.
And don't tell me to shut up about the rights I have under the MPL 2.0
So whats wrong, do you want it become not public? There in the Mozilla license written that it must be public, and you must provide your sources too.
We are in compliance and provide the source code. You are not.
like it or not but i provide the source code too, and i pointed you where to look for what is your problem?
You post leads to misinformation
Here the right paragraph of https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/MPL/2.0/
**3.2. Distribution of Executable Form
If You distribute Covered Software in Executable Form then:
such Covered Software must also be made available in Source Code Form, as described in Section 3.1, and You must inform recipients of the Executable Form how they can obtain a copy of such Source Code Form by reasonable means in a timely manner, at a charge no more than the cost of distribution to the recipient; and**
You bear all the misinformation, you distort mozilla license.
I always though the open source community was all about helping each other and making things better together, all this talk sounds more like how large powerhungry corporations would act...
You bear all the misinformation, you distort mozilla license.
No, in fact he's applying the Mozilla license to the letter here. Nothing is distorted except your misinterpretation of the license. Like I said before if you can't understand your obligations under the MPL, get legal counsel who can explain it in a way you can understand.
all this talk sounds more like how large powerhungry corporations would act...
Maybe it's news to you but individuals also have legal rights under the copyright act. In fact, it is the default unless rights are granted (note: granted!) by the rights holder otherwise. The MPL grants such rights, but only if you are in compliance with it. Break with the license, then you can no longer use the code.
Tobin i wont go for your manipulations. I consider that it is all right with rules of the license and this article.
I have cited the license as written
This is exact lie, you cited the license as you see fit.
Tobin you may edit your posts of course, but your older lies remain preserved.
Do you want to say you typed license paragraphs by hands? Why. If wanted cite exact paragraph you copy paste.
May delete though yes. Until then let other people can see what you corrected.
(OT)
@Feodor2 All edits to posts in these issues are fully visible to anyone as diffs, so I'm not sure what your complaint is.
Also, just "moving elsewhere"[1] and re-publishing it elsewhere without solving the source code issues will not solve the licensing issues and you would still be in violation of the MPL.
"maybe it is a point to delete the whole my github to go somewhere else"
P.S. Said thread the quote is from also indicates you clearly understand the issue at hand, so I won't accept any further feigned ignorance.
I am ready to remove your code property Tobin. But i do not know what lines of this whole code is your property, and it is not any clear way how to determine this code lines from lists with some unknown commits which not exist in this source code.
So point code lines for remove in this source and with reasonables proof that it is actually yours property source code
to start from there and work your way forward. If a specific commit is not clear I stand by to clarify if it is my code.
Then let begin
where your source code in the commit 0d19b77d3eaa5b8d837bf52c19759e68e42a1c4c
My reasonable proof is the commit log.
How it prove that its code is written by you and not taken elsewhere.
That actually isn't code.. It is git repo configuration and isn't even under the MPL. But you may use it ;)
So lets go to the next: e72ef92b5bdc43cd2584198e2e54e951b70299e8
If you are, however, not accept that nearly all my contributions are mine then the open source license is meaningless and it falls >back to copyright across the board which means you are going to have to seek permission from every copyright holder for the >past 22 years.
As i understand i must remove only your property code lines, and can keep what is left. I ask you to point where it is, then i shall remove it and thats all.
For example in the commit above application/basilisk/branding/official/appname.bmp not your property for sure, why i must remove it?
How it prove that its code is written by you and not taken elsewhere.
I see what you're trying to do here.
The original source of code is irrelevant because the person making the modification to the source code in question is Tobin. Unless the Author is claimed to be someone else (which generally only occurs for verbatim patch application), the modification will be authored by whomever is the author of the commit. This is why git has the option to specify both author and committer of commits, so someone else than the author of the modification can commit it to a tree.
It's irrelevant if the modification is based on existing code elsewhere (as long as that existing code isn't otherwise prohibited/proprietary). The only thing that matters is that the modification committed to the tree is authored by someone. If that someone is Tobin, then you can no longer use that modification unless you have explicit permission from him, since he retracted his grant for use of his modifications.
Point where these modifications authored by Tobin in this code source.
Even if Tobin manages to identify "his" modifications, they are still open to be used by whoever wishes to do so, in the same manner he used someone else's modifications over the original firefox-netcape code. What a dope.
"This is why git has the option to specify both author and committer of commits, so someone else than the author of the modification can commit it to a tree" Laf. Sue me.
"I think you need to re-read MPL Definitions in Sections 1.1, 1.3, 1.4, and 1.10. That should clear up the confusion." I'll get my lawyers to read the footprint, roflmao.
I ask about the same commit above, i cannot find files set match in this source, elaborate clear way how to remove this commit?
I shall do remove else what is match without question
I see no reason for you to remove anything, nor do I see any validity in the glibberish exposed above.
I'll get my lawyers to read the footprint, roflmao.
You should. The MPL is very clear in that it allows authors to rescind rights to people who do not adhere to the license. Feodor2 did not adhere to the license and within the terms of the license Tobin has retracted the right for Feodor2 to use his modifications.
I ask about the same commit above
So, are you planning to have a back-and-forth about every commit of the list that Tobin has given you? I think you'll run out of time in that case, judging by the number of commits listed.
As long as you do not solve the current source code issues with Tobin, you are non-compliant. That also means that if you don't come back into compliance (by solving the problem with Tobin's commits) within 30 days of being notified by other contributors, they may also retract their grant. Make no mistake, I'm pretty sure that will happen.
@ everyone
The TL;DR of this entire thing is that by his own actions, Feodor2 has now made it extremely difficult for himself to continue publishing MyPal and Centaury (and anything else he might want to publish based on UXP or earlier code bases).
At most, but then not necessarily, you COULD add something like "modded from sweettooth's (to make up a name) previous modification of firefox-netscape code (or whatever) at ..." wherever sweettooth did so.
"You should. The MPL is very clear in that it allows authors to rescind rights to people who do not adhere to the license. Feodor2 did not adhere to the license and within the terms of the license Tobin has retracted the right for Feodor2 to use his modifications." He doesn't have the right to do so.
At most, with proof, he can ask for recognition in the used modification.
"You should." I am. They are working overtime on it. Laf.
"in the used modification" of a modification, that is to say, over which sweettooth (again, just using a name for the sake of it) can prove "ownership". Lmao.
I see your tooth is letting you write again.
Properly prove "ownership" of modified opensource code, first, sweet heart, then start threatening something more than glibberish legal action. It is not the first time I see you using these trolling-FUD actions.
Shame on you!
"You have received notice of non-compliance with this License from such Contributor, and You become compliant prior to 30 days after Your receipt of the notice." And I have not received any such notice. I'm just exercising my right of self-expression, with no association whatsoever with whoever may have received, or not, such threats.
MS wanna be.
oops, I meant to write puto amo wanna be.
Or wanna be, a secas, sweet heart.
The TL;DR of this entire thing is that by his own actions, Feodor2 has now made it extremely difficult for himself to continue publishing MyPal and Centaury (and anything else he might want to publish based on UXP or earlier code bases).
You are right indeed, i shall no publish any on UXP or earlier code bases.
Meanwhile
@dmiranda12, anyone who follows the terms of the MPL may use Covered Software according to the terms of the License if it comes from a legit source such as our repos or even Roytam1's. Anyone except @Fedor2 when it comes to my contributions. This repo is currently invalid because Fedor doesn't have rights any longer to use my contributions so you couldn't just clone it... You would need to start over or base things on someone elses repo and create the changes Fedor did.
Here comes excellent solution. I transfer this repository to new owner then it will cease being invalid,
You can't do that because the grant under Section 2.1 Paragraph A has been terminated.
okey it has been terminated for me, what about other people?
So other people indeed have rights and grant to take your contributions.
It's becoming a bit harder to follow all the legalese (I'm a programmer, not a lawyer), but I think what they're saying is that you have to audit your code to remove everything Tobin did. So far courts seem to have upheld the notion that individual contributors don't give up their rights to their code if they put it under a conditional license (even a fairly permissive one) rather than making it public domain.
One of the things that some in the open source community dislike about the Mozilla Public License is that it allows for the termination of a person's right to use the code under some circumstances, and this situation you're in now would be a pretty good example of the situation those people feared coming to pass.
If you remove all code authored by Tobin and you get the result to compile, what you'll probably end up with is something that works as a browser, but feels like a half-broken version of Firefox 52 rather than something nice and polished. It might even be more desirable at this point to just fork the last version of Firefox 52ESR yourself and cleanly apply all relevant patches you can find on top of it.
Look at this way. If you continue using his code, then apart from the potential legal consequences, it will only strengthen his conviction that he is a genius, and that you're having to steal his work because you're not capable programmers in your own right. But if you remove his contributions, and then manage to make your project work just as well without them... well, in the end, it's up to you.
okey it has been terminated for me, what about other people?
Let me condense it without legalese:
Tobin has retracted his grant (= right to use his authored code). This means your repo in its current state is non-compliant with the licence from the moment he retracted the grant, and none of the code in the repo (even your own!) can be used by anyone else as long as it is non-compliant with its license.
In turn, that also means you can't transfer it to anyone else to sidestep the issue (because you have no right to do anything with the code), and other people can't use it as an upstream to fork from either, any longer - unless and until these compliance issues are resolved.
So, if there's anyone using MyPal or any other of Feodor's repos with Tobin's code as upstream code, they should pay attention to this issue and re-fork from a compliant repo lest they risk becoming non-compliant themselves for using protected and unlicensed code.
"So, are you planning to have a back-and-forth about every commit of the list that Tobin has given you?" If I were Feodor, of course I would do so. I would ask for proof of ownership of the modifications being now modified. with the same degree of detail reclaimed from him.
"Are you saying you also intend to or are currently violating the MPL?" Nope. My skills are not such. Are you gonna send them marines, gato?
Let me condense it without legalese:
Tobin has retracted his grant (= right to use his authored code). This means your repo in its current state is non-compliant with the licence from the moment he retracted the grant, and none of the code in the repo (even your own!) can be used by anyone else as long as it is non-compliant with its license.
In turn, that also means you can't transfer it to anyone else to sidestep the issue (because you have no right to do anything with the code), and other people can't use it as an upstream to fork from either, any longer - unless and until these compliance issues are resolved.So, if there's anyone using MyPal or any other of Feodor's repos with Tobin's code as upstream code, they should pay attention to this issue and re-fork from a compliant repo lest they risk becoming non-compliant themselves for using protected and unlicensed code.
let's see some legal basis for this extended bs
like hell this guilt by association crap follows from the mpl
what you do is an attempt to alter or restrict the recipients’ rights in the source code form
you lot are like criminal racketeers
you don't do gang raids on github if you want to protect the license
you want to punish feodor because he continued xp support that you don't like
you always had it in for him since then
only losers try to scare a guy they know very well doesn't have good enough english to grasp legalese
you keep saying feodor understands everything and is deliberately violating
if he understands why is he going to forums asking for help to explain what you talk about?
what a bunch of jerks to take advantage of handicap
you always talk down to him and call him criminal and thief and other things
he should sue you for all that defamation crap
feodor has done what has been asked how he has understood it
he did it when matt tobin first bullied him and he is willing now
he's not looking for trouble and doing harm, you are
your goal has never been to settle
way to unmask why you came with 3 complaints at once so you can hit him again later
real noble tactics
As long as you do not solve the current source code issues with Tobin, you are non-compliant. That also means that if you don't come back into compliance (by solving the problem with Tobin's commits) within 30 days of being notified by other contributors, they may also retract their grant. Make no mistake, I'm pretty sure that will happen.
@ everyone
The TL;DR of this entire thing is that by his own actions, Feodor2 has now made it extremely difficult for himself to continue publishing MyPal and Centaury (and anything else he might want to publish based on UXP or earlier code bases).
ha ha nice joke
what a cockamamie bunch
your actions are making it difficult for everyone not his
So, if there's anyone using MyPal or any other of Feodor's repos with Tobin's code as upstream code, they should pay attention to this issue and re-fork from a compliant repo lest they risk becoming non-compliant themselves for using protected and unlicensed code.
I don't clear understand. You retracted the grant from me only, okey i step aside, the code is left no longer associated with me, how you will retract grant from the code?
Okey this all code here including your will be removed at all, will it be point of validity?
I don't clear understand. You retracted the grant from me only, okey i step aside, the code is left no longer associated with me, how you will retract grant from the code?
I think you might have the wrong perspective on the code. If you think of the right to use the code as similar to the right to lease an apartment, you're being evicted for violating the rental agreement and asking why you can't sublet to someone else and why anyone you've sublet the apartment to is also affected.
That is, you lost the right to sublet as well as to live there, when the landlord terminated your lease. It's an imperfect analogy, but that's the closest real-world analogy to something that works this way I can come up with.
In other words, if you hand control of the repository to anyone else, or they simply clone it themselves, it's based on unauthorized modifications. You and anyone who copied the code would now, in fact, be distributing unauthorized modifications of code that is under copyright. It's the same reason you can't distribute video game ROMs or movies, for instance. A similar situation is why a game developer cannot easily re-release games based on licensed media properties they once had a license for, but lost later because it was granted to someone else instead. They had the right, and then the rightsholder took it away. Does that make sense?
I personally don't have a problem with any of this because I was always a believer in intellectual property protections and copyright law as a good thing for smaller developers. I think a lot of people just don't understand my way of thinking until after they've put a lot of their life's work into a project like this, and then have their idealism shattered when they see that people view the source being available as an invitation to use it any way they want, without necessarily following a license agreement or caring about branding or image being respected. It makes people want to protect what's theirs, and I think that's perfectly natural. Open source community mentality is the thing that's not natural, if you think about it. Defending your work and your property while arguing about what the terms of a contract mean is about as human as you can get.
I can definitely appreciate that this sort of thing comes as a bit of a shock to people who have only ever really dabbled in open source projects where you can do almost anything you want with the code, though. This kind of stuff doesn't get invoked very often around these parts.
You are still on the hook for the code in this repo of which contains my contributions. You cannot just run away from your responsibilities and your non-compliance trickes downstream and applies to any of your successors. They cannot use Covered Software from you that you cannot rightfully convey. They can only start from a point of validity. This repo and the code it currently contains is not within that spectrum.
bs like this you rarely see
there is no provision in the mpl like you pretend
as long as who forks from here provides the source they are free to do whatever
even if you were right anyone who got the source before your gang raid is still free if they publish source
there can never be retroactive application of your crap, that's why you say currently and hope people don't notice what that means
even if your bs were 100% correct your rights have only been violated by a small technicality
even a gorilla could understand that but looks like you can only beat your chest
i'm great matt tobin, my enemies are running scared
you're butthurt because you were banned from msfn and want revenge
that happened because you violated forum rules many times
you can't abuse people left and right and come out scott free
you the stickler to legality can't even follow the rules of your own pale moon forum
then your buddy moonchild has to appeal to his sheeple to bail you out from rightful punishment
of course you never jaywalk or speed, or if you do you pay a fine voluntarily
no harm has been done to you, but you want to harm all those who rely on feodor's work
you hate xp users and want to screw them over, morality be damned
what a white knight in shining armor, savior of software licensing
what you do is an attempt to alter or restrict the recipients’ rights in the source code form
Keep in mind that recipient's rights are no longer present when the source code is no longer in compliance with the license.
Please read what I wrote carefully. I've condensed it down for people to make the threshold of understanding a bit lower, and that's all I did.
If you want to get a full legal explanation and interpretation of the MPL I strongly suggest you talk to a lawyer. Take the MPL license text and this discussion with you, and have the lawyer explain to you what happens when a grant is retracted, what you can and cannot do with a source code that is non-compliant (hint: the answer is you can't do anything with it or use it for anything), and how failing compliance with the license falls back to property rights and author rights (copyright).
I'm also not bailing anyone out. Instead I've come here to try and help clarify the issue since you're all still claiming to not understand or that what the MPL states is bullshit.
Read the license. Understand it. Apply it.
To follow up on @athenian200 's leasing analogy, they can, however, go to the property manager (us or any other compliant upstream) and rent (under Terms of the License) the apartment (the Covered Software) directly. Which would, of course, be all cleaned up (valid state) before they move in (fork) and maybe you will give them some pictures to hang on the wall (branding).
So yes it is clear now i clean up the code, it become valid state, transfer to new owner and so on...
Then i never take myself your code, though i may take the code of any developer who does not related to you and your code.
If you want to get a full legal explanation and interpretation of the MPL I strongly suggest you talk to a lawyer.
why do i have to talk to a lawyer?
why does feodor have to talk to a lawyer?
why don't you lot talk to a lawyer since you're making these bs claims
you have the gall to say i'm making mpl into bs
it's you doing that when you abuse mpl to have vendetta and make claims not in mpl
you can't win argument by puffing up to look confident and authoritative, you know
otherwise you'd win every time you talk with web standars guys and mozilla
it's really amazing how polite even matt tobin can be with them
no wonder he later has to take his anger out on somebody when he's shown his place
i don't get your game plan
you keep saying things will get worse for feodor if he doesn't cave to you bullies
you're really going to sue him?
i don't think so
you don't want the kind of publicity you'll get if everyone sees your bully colors
you're also to cheap to spend on lawyers and you have no money to win from feodor
luckily for you feodor is not a jerk like you are and maybe will back down to your bluff
who wants to keep dealing with never ending bullying
I'm also not bailing anyone out.
you have problems with reading skills
you already bailed him out when he was supposed to be banned from your forum
anyone else would be banned but not your pet pitbull
for him you get your faithful to support him in the vote so it looks legit
didn't see your high principles then for some reason
feodor of course is an enemy so he must be dealt with no matter what
if you gave two shits about open source you'd try to find compromise
nothing in the license says matt tobin can't reinstate once feodor fixes this minor thing
it's not even compromise because no side loses anything, it's common sense
feodor will instruct how to get his source and problem solved
too bad he's dealing with pharisees who only want to crucify him
Defending your work and your property while arguing about what the terms of a contract mean is about as human as you can get.
who has harmed your work and property dude and in what way?
you have nothing to defend because no one has attacked you
you're the pharisees attacking feodor and those who depend on him
most humans don't go out of their way to screw other people over
matt tobin here does that with great pleasure and you're his wingman
if you care so much then why you don't try talk some sense into matt tobin?
all you do is make excuses for him
you're in a lynch mob, pretending to be a visiting lecturer
don't even try to act like you're here for something else
why does feodor have to talk to a lawyer?
I would like to be consulted though about mozilla license about. What is the shit about that one may take mozilla, code change few lines there and then declare left code its property. For example one mostly big their modification was recently about remove the second line of every file about * vim: this is great, with thousand files done - save a lots of space. Ok i take intact firefox code, and decide to remove this second line too because this is great to save space on the storage, traffic and else. I want to know will they abuse me about i taken their code?
who has harmed your work and property dude and in what way?
I was speaking generally about how people tend to want to do that. But more specifically, I'm talking about how people doing various rebuilds have been harming the brands of both Binary Outcast and Moonchild Productions over the years, using the servers/support infrastructure/branding, etc. It's merely an observation that such behaviors tend to result in a growing desire to protect what one has built. Whether you feel that desire is ultimately a good thing or a bad thing, it is what it is.
you have nothing to defend because no one has attacked you
you're the pharisees attacking feodor and those who depend on him
most humans don't go out of their way to screw other people over
matt tobin here does that with great pleasure and you're his wingman
if you care so much then why you don't try talk some sense into matt tobin?
all you do is make excuses for him
you're in a lynch mob, pretending to be a visiting lecturer
don't even try to act like you're here for something else
Tobin has been dealing with this a lot longer than I have, and that is why things have reached this unfortunate point. Surely you don't think I'm happy that Tobin has reached the point of feeling he has to take such drastic measures, or that I'm not concerned about community anger/backlash resulting from his decision? I know well that many in the open source community do not take kindly to this sort of attitude to license agreements, even when legally justified. Of course this was all discussed in private, and he is beyond caring. I personally have no desire to see your project fail, and in fact I want everyone here to understand what they have to do to come back into compliance with the license. I probably would have been satisfied with removing the executables and doing proper source code tagging of releases in the future, if it were only up to me.
I suppose you could somewhat accurately describe me as Tobin's "wingman," if that suits you. I am his subordinate within Binary Outcast, and his friend otherwise. But I am mostly here to make sure everyone understands the situation and what Tobin's choice to revoke the license grant means for the future of this project. I do understand why you invoke the Pharisees. Christ teaches that we should turn the other cheek, and you don't think Tobin's behavior here is very charitable or Christian even if he is within his rights to do it. Point taken.
I can honestly tell you that I have no desire to "lynch" anyone, and that I am not especially happy about this development, even if I do strongly sympathize with how Tobin feels after what he's been though with repeated license and branding violations. I personally bear no ill will towards anyone, though I do understand if you choose not to trust in that due to my friendship with Tobin.
I would like to be consulted though about mozilla license about.
of course and you should if you can
i meant how they say talk to a lawyer as if they're lawyers themselves
they think if you talked to a lawyer you'd know you have no hope
fools don't think that if you really got a lawyer he'd do everything to expose their crap
wouldn't be hard for any decent lawyer when even layman can see its bs vendetta
I was speaking generally about how people tend to want to do that. But more specifically, I'm talking about how people doing various rebuilds have been harming the brands of both Binary Outcast and Moonchild Productions over the years, using the servers/support infrastructure/branding, etc. It's merely an observation that such behaviors tend to result in a growing desire to protect what one has built.
thanks dude for testifying in public that this is vendetta from old grudge
now we all know this isn't about feodor not instructing where to get the source
what a surprise
this has nothing to do with protecting anything
using your support infrastructure? you are kidding for sure
everyone who's asked a question about not official pale moon got the boot immediately
also getting called and idiot or criminal or whatever crap was in vogue there that day
not changing branding has been free ad for you
feodor's browsers are meant for xp where people have almost no choice these days
on newer os they have no reason to use pale moon but they might if they also use it on xp
also in web traffic it increases your statistics
in the end none of this matters because none of this is the basis of the bs claims now
if it were then maybe matt tobin wouldn't look like complete ass doing this
Surely you don't think I'm happy that Tobin has reached the point of feeling he has to take such drastic measures, or that I'm not concerned about community anger/backlash resulting from his decision?
surely i think so because you never said you had misgivings about this bs
if you do then speak up from the start
what do you expect if you come here for coordinated gang raid?
if you want sympathy then don't attack people and don't help others attack
should anyone here give a rats ass about matt tobins feelings?
after all his name calling and slander?
if he knew how to act like a decent human being we wouldn't be here today
I personally have no desire to see your project fail
I am his subordinate within Binary Outcast, and his friend otherwise.
very noble of matt tobin to force his underlings to fight his dirty fight for him
even if they don't feel the hate he does
i would almost feel sorry for you dude for being in this position
if you hadn't brought your own part of this bs claim
to support your friend you don't have to hurt others
I do understand why you invoke the Pharisees
this is not about religion, every person should have empathy
dictionary says pharisee is hypocritically self-righteous person
i never ask anyone to turn another cheek if attacked
just don't cry wolf and use pretext to attack others
too fast logic for the new tobin paradigm i'm sure
I do understand if you choose not to trust in that due to my friendship with Tobin.
we should care that you don't have ill will after you come here to harm feodor's project?
not some imaginary harm but threaten to shut him down
at least you're not sticking to the bs script like your two bosses
maybe there's some hope for you if you choose better friends
Can we please return to the facts of the dispute and terms of the Mozilla Public License 2.0 leaving personal bias and personal attacks aside?
i don't know, can you leave personal bias and bs aside and be a mensch?
the fact of this dispute is you're out for vendetta mpl be damned
your friend already confirmed it
Also one correction for @athenian200, while it sometimes seems our choice of venue for discussion is private this entire situation remains discussed only via publicly accessable infrastructure.
ha ha, wouldn't want to be accused of conspiracy right?
i think we'll take your friend's word on this
We are NOT one big group coming after you nor did anyone else get involved under my orders and did not I start this under theirs.
As a matter of fact, I never discussed with Moonchild anything
sounds good except
Of course this was all discussed in private, and he is beyond caring.
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
you should do comedy matt tobin
keep it up, feodor's lawyer will love this
I think you need to take it down a peg, @yongsu101 Stick to the facts, leave speculation out the door, and do what I said you should do before you just dig a big ass hole for yourself to fall into, i.e. talk to someone who can explain the license to you. I'm not even sure what stake you have in this discussion or why you are so fervent in writing long lists of high ground accusations about what doesn't even directly affect you. Maybe you'd like to enlighten everyone?
So you are going to perpetuate conspiracy theories
i'm perpetuating conspiracy theories?
3 people from same outfit show up with same claim within hours
this is supposed to be completely accidental
even though one of these people says it was all discussed in private
and that his boss is beyond caring
you should train your underling athenian how to lie like a pro
There are thousands of people being banned from dozens of services for what you are now attempting to do. I would be very careful that you do not become one of them.
spoken from personal experience it seems
this isn't the pale moon forum where you can talk big and make threats
i can stop if repo owner feodor tells me, not a bully like you
i know you'd love to kill feodor's project in silence
everyone in awe of your clever bs and big crocodile tears over the fate of software licensing
no going to happen dude
Stick to the facts, leave speculation out the door
i'd love to but loads of bs from your outfit keep getting in my way
before you just dig a big ass hole for yourself to fall into
are you maybe talking to your boy matt tobin?
i ask because you mentioned big ass hole
too late anyway, he already fell in
what doesn't even directly affect you
it affects me very directly and many other people too
not that you'd care because we aren't your sheeple
i use feodor's browser all the time and am grateful for his effort
you dropped my os, he keeps me happy
your gang is trying to shut him down with bs claims over personal grudges
can you now connect the dots why i must speak up against this injustice?
we should care that you don't have ill will after you come here to harm feodor's project?
not some imaginary harm but threaten to shut him down
You know, I actually came primarily because I wanted a chance to help bring you back into compliance with the license so you wouldn't have to worry about your project getting shut down. You really think my pointing out steps you could take to get back into compliance is something malicious?
What you've said about me setting out to harm your project might very well be libel, you know that? I try to help you out, and you respond by spreading lies about me and twisting my words. You are calling Binary Outcast a "lynch mob," accusing me personally of trying to harm Feodor's project, etc. I see, you think if I'm more likely to personally hold you to the letter of the law now that you've insulted and lied about me, that makes my case less valid because I'm choosing not to be as lenient or forgiving as I would otherwise be? Interesting.
Well, @yongsu101, you can try to provoke me al you want with personal insults or asserting we're a "gang" or that Tobin is "my boy" (nothing could be farther from the truth. It's quite a hilarious notion 😆 ) but it won't do anything aside from wasting everyone's time. For someone asserting "bs getting in the way" you're throwing a lot of excrement around yourself.
Inform yourself before you screech "injustice", please.
As regards the timing of the issues created, the only link there is the fact each of us was notified about the license breach through open channels. Now you can speculate all you want about that, but it doesn't take away the fact that the MPL was violated and as a result Feodor has made it exceedingly difficult on himself to continue providing/distributing a derivative of Pale Moon/Basilisk to Windows XP users. Unfortunately for him, there are no shortcuts out of this situation to come back into compliance (or to transfer or have a fork of a non-compliant source tree by anyone else) once Tobin retracted his grant. You shouldn't blame us for demanding the MPL is followed; you should blame Feodor for breaking with the MPL twice. If he hadn't, there would be no issue here and you could happily continue to use the (IMO very questionable, but that aside) derivative of either browser on whatever O.S. you choose to use.
I also suggest people here actually do some research into the license text instead of trying to badger us into some kind of heated personal exchange drifting away from the compliance issue. It didn't take me much time to figure out the intricacies of what actually happens when a grant is retracted and what is or isn't possible from that point forward. I'm confident others can figure out the same things; get legal counsel if you need it, like I already said a few times.
As already pointed out above though: be very careful if you used Feodor's code as an "upstream" for forks. If you aren't, you may also become non-compliant with the license by incorporating code from a non-compliant repo. This is not an idle warning. Once more: inform yourself. Athenian200's subletting analogy is extremely apt although not exact but I'll let you folks find the differences yourself.
Now, I think I've said about everything (and more) I needed to say here. I won't let this issue become a major time sink but I will continue to follow it and take action accordingly if necessary.
Good day to you.
@Feodor2 have you considered simply ignoring these guys? They can threaten you, and posture all they'd like, but I think it might be difficult for them to take legal action, seeing as how you're located in Ukraine 🤔.
It seems to me that under every release there are two compressed files that say source code. https://prnt.sc/1qkxsyb So, if it is there, and it took me all of 10 seconds to find, then what exactly is the problem. I am just a user but it seems to me, Moonchild, that you are complaining about nothing here. Regardless, the source code is there, it is easy to find especially for a non programmer like me. Blessings
I noticed exactly what you're talking about. Try downloading one of those files. It's empty and contains no source code, only a README because that's all the repo the executables were posted in contained. That is basically the entire problem, if those files marked "source code" actually contained it, I can assure you I would not be here.
So much for your conspiracy theory.
ladies and gentlemen, that was mr technicality himself, big man matt tobin with his amazing stories
nice that your cover story is all great bullies think alike
don't even need to coordinate dick moves, happens automatically
you'd be funny if you weren't trying to destroy a good mans years of work
i see you don't deny you're only using the mpl bs as pretext to stick it to feodor for past grudge
your outfit is the same tag team that shows up everywhere else hand in glove
look at your forum or repos if you can't recall
You know, I actually came primarily because I wanted a chance to help bring you back into compliance with the license so you wouldn't have to worry about your project getting shut down.
the only way you can help with that is if you get your boss to stop screwing feodor's project
feodor's project not mine or ours, it doesn't have cult community so users are separate individuals not sheeple he directs
you know perfectly well nothing else can help so don't bother playing good samaritan now
of course the whole thing is bs anyway but in your context that's a fact
What you've said about me setting out to harm your project might very well be libel, you know that?
you should consult a lawyer if you think what people can see with their own eyes is libel
this is not like matt tobin talking random crap about people, here we can all see what you participated in
go cry in the corner or complain to your boss who just said himself he told you should do all this
if it hurts your feelings to get called out for it, maybe resist commands to attack people in the future
For someone asserting "bs getting in the way" you're throwing a lot of excrement around yourself.
only thanks to your lessons sensei
As regards the timing of the issues created, the only link there is the fact each of us was notified about the license breach through open channels.
nothing has changed about how feodor does things for a long time
we all know you guys keep tabs on him or at least matt tobin does
then you all show up together, what a coincidence indeed
not going to address the rest of your regurgitated bs
good day to you and stay the hell away why don't you
Unfortunately for him, there are no shortcuts out of this situation to come back into compliance (or to transfer or have a fork of a non-compliant source tree by anyone else) once Tobin retracted his grant.
didn't want to come back but this must be said
what you said there my friend is a bold faced lie
there is a very simple shortcut and that's matt tobin stops being an ass
the mpl doesn't force him to screw all feodor's users over a vendetta
he can settle the moment feodor attaches source files, nothing preventing him but body weight of ill will
if you deny this shortcut you admit he is clinically incapable of not being an ass
you know him better than the rest of us here so if you're right you're right
All forks created on or after August 23rd or use any contributions of this repository or source code dumps after August 23rd will be likewise notified of non-compliance on or after September 6th.
EDIT: ATTN @Feodor2 don't miss this
thanks so much for confirming all forks created before then are still valid
unfortunately for you git is a distributed system and doesn't have to reside on github
so you wouldn't know if these forks exist
just so you know feodor hasn't called me here
your gang called me here with your bs attack
sycophanting is pale moon community standard, feodor doesn't swing that way
provisionally your ass matt tobin
your bluff has been called and you can't do nothing about it
the mpl doesn't force him to screw all feodor's users over a vendetta
@yongsu101 Actually it is Feodor here screwing over his users because he couldn't simply follow a simple free software license.
Free software != public domain
classic victim blaming @jobbautista9
learn to read and you'll see what i said above about why feodor doesn't get all legalese
classic victim blaming @jobbautista9
learn to read and you'll see what i said above about why feodor doesn't get all legalese
Feodor is not really a victim here. He has done this himself.
I'm not even a native English speaker (Tagalog is my native tongue), yet I understand the MPL very well. If Feodor can't understand the MPL, maybe he shouldn't fork MPL-based projects then. He should go for BSDs, MITs/X11s, and public domain software instead, which is a lot easier to understand.
i hat M.A.T for most of what he do to us but cant find falt wth his interpitaton of the public license. Sucks @Feodor2 has to stop b/c of this. Surly someone else can take over and protect from him.
I refuse to remove commit 5f8de423f190bbb79a62f804151bc24824fa32d8 this is not related to you in any way and not is your contribution. Next explain where yore drag out date of September 6th.
What a shit license, but according to this i contribute similar code and it will become my contribution.
not going through every commit in order with
I not going to ask every commit told you this alredy, i only wanted to clarify this particular commit and about removing lines of code, look my example above, thats all.
What a shit license
@Feodor2 If you didn't like the license in the first place, why did you fork a project licensed under the MPL then?
As I suggested above, you should just go for permissive licenses or public domain instead, if you can't understand licenses that employ some sort of copyleft like the MPL.
Yes i do not know all your contributions, you have provided me the list with commits i work according it, dont tell me then that you have contributions on ESR24 or ESR38.
Call these assholes on their bluff, and just ignore them. They aren't going to do shit. Even if they intended to, they would be unsuccessful, and they know it. They're just hoping to bully you into giving in to their demands. Fuck Tobin, and fuck his handler, Moonchild.
- Termination
5.1. The rights granted under this License will terminate automatically if You fail to comply with any of its terms. However, if You become compliant, then the rights granted under this License from a particular Contributor are reinstated (a) provisionally, unless and until such Contributor explicitly and finally terminates Your grants, and (b) on an ongoing basis, if such Contributor fails to notify You of the non-compliance by some reasonable means prior to 60 days after You have come back into compliance. Moreover, Your grants from a particular Contributor are reinstated on an ongoing basis if such Contributor notifies You of the non-compliance by some reasonable means, this is the first time You have received notice of non-compliance with this License from such Contributor, and You become compliant prior to 30 days after Your receipt of the notice.
How about you stop and understand I spent hours last night downloading the sources for MyPal. All the sources are there. It's in compliance.
It's the other project Centaury that currently doesn't have code. If you would stop being childish, grow up and attach issues to the correct project then something can be done.
Different project, different breach, he has cure time. This issue should be marked solved.
I can definitely say that my own personal issues with Feodor's project will be resolved by simply using GitHub as intended. However, the grant retraction thing is something he'll have to settle with Tobin himself. We actually did create issues on the Centaury repo that didn't have code, and they were already closed. Somehow the discussion moved over here.
I will say though, you'll probably have an easier time getting something along the lines of Centaury to work without Tobin's contributions than something like MyPal.
No sir by that logic, Firefox and Palemoon are the same project since they contain some of the same code. Different projects, different breaches, get a lawyer to read for you.
From Basilisk's homepage:
Basilisk is a free and Open Source XUL-based web browser, featuring the well-known Firefox-style interface and operation. It is based on the Goanna layout and rendering engine (a fork of Gecko) and builds on the Unified XUL Platform (UXP), which in turn is a fork of the Mozilla code base without Servo or Rust.
Nothing on Basilisk's homepage about Pale Moon and Basilisk being the same project. Pale Moon is one browser and Basilisk is another. How many times have you said that in your forums? I'm not a foreigner that you can bully Matt, nor am I associated with MyPal other than using it. Open an issue with the correct project, stop your bullying and bluffing. This bullying and attacking people is the reason I stopped giving money to Pale Moon.
It is true that Pale Moon and Basilisk are separate browsers. However, notice it says "builds on the Unified XUL Platform (UXP)"? That is where the majority of the contributions were actually made. UXP is used as a base to build Pale Moon, Basilisk, Interlink, Ambassador, and many other applications. So the UXP platform code that's shared is the main problem.
Then get a lawyer and stop griping about it here. And yes the courts will judge them based on projects. I cannot sue Mozilla for what Palemoon does, that is absurd. Two separate projects. Also, to sue you will have to prove damages. Regardless, stop bullying and get a lawyer and see. A lawyer will tell you like he told me with my sister's cancer: until she dies, we couldn't sue because of no damages.
It is true that Pale Moon and Basilisk are separate browsers. However, notice it says "builds on the Unified XUL Platform (UXP)"? That is where the majority of the contributions were actually made. UXP is used as a base to build Pale Moon, Basilisk, Interlink, Ambassador, and many other applications. So the UXP platform code that's shared is the main problem.
And I understand that, but dealing with lawyers isn't cut and dry. Just because one project screws up, you can't demand another one to stop.
You brought it to everyone following this. You have been a bully and have lied. Fact is Centaury is not DOWNSTREAM from MyPal, it's DOWNSTREAM from Basilisk. Keep spreading your lies. I would LOVE to see you try to sue Feodor and the Centaury project. It will be as entertaining as SCO vs IBM.
@Feodor2 report him for bullying.
People please dont argue with him and spongers, and don't advice me ignore and such else, this is counterproductive.
Tobin wants to destroy my browser and then roytams too of course, this is the fact and axiom, and he always will be seeking the opportunity. So let we do not allow him to do this today. My fault of course, but why i have created this topic in the first place, you could come to help me and point that there i do wrong. If i fix the problem the browser can be preserved, and tobins may go back to their hole, however i lose direct access to the project but i think this is better than i ignore and he finally shutdown the page, to go hiding elsewhere not good option either i think, consider same as Tobin want, as most likely you dont know where is to get Presto browser today?
Those of you using illegal copies of Windows XP Embedded and hacked versions of XP and Vista.. Of course you would have no respect for legally binding agreements. You flaunt violation at every turn. Hide behind false ignorance attacking anyone who tries to show the proper way of doing things and sabotage any effort to help.
Cry more.
Have you forgotten that Github is currently OWNED by Microsoft? Have you forgotten that actions have consequences?
Do something about it lmao.
I respect software as far as it respects me. I'll proudly abuse the living fuck out of Microsoft's IP, thank you very much 🏴☠️
Is all you and your supporters can do is lob toxic insults at everyone and repeat the same series of agressive responses over and over again in successive waves for 4 days?
matt tobin your poker face here is almost believable if we didn't know better
too bad there is google search and people can see your true face
how you behave when you don't have to pretend to be all business
if you think we're toxic it's because you pushed us into your toxic crap
you're toxic by nature and the biggest bane to your own team
moonchild is paranoid but he also has skills and is not a sociopath
without you maybe he could have made pale moon a respected brand
your contribution is that you're hated all around and no one wants to work with you
even when you put up bounty you can't get help
because even if someone helps you they can get called traitor the next moment for no reason
that's the definition of taking advantage of people
word gets around matt tobin and also word about how pale moon doesn't work on many sites
it's just like you say
You could have been great. Far better than you actually are.. Perhaps even living up to the false illusion these people see you through.
guess what matt tobin
xp users you hate so much aren't glad at all that things are bad for pale moon
we could be your most loyal fans if you could get over your mental behavior
we wouldn't saw the branch we sit on but you for some reason are doing it yourselves
All I have ever wanted from you XPeople is to do things properly and stop sponging (as you put it) off us.
all you people do is copy from firefox and gecko and even google who you say you hate
that is the definition of sponging, nothing different from how feodor bases on your work
this sponging is normal in open source
except you like to pretend like you're all original and made a moon landing
You were offered the help needed to be your own thing
Maybe if someone else was doing it who understood
who offers help at the same time talking down and insulting and defaming the other?
your winning personality is the reason your so called help goes unwanted
if you want good relations, send someone who isn't rude all the time
man's got to know his limitations
no one from the old and insecure Windows fan club is capable
selfish and close minded desires.
you're the expert on selfish and close minded desires
your team has one person capable of real coding and it sure isn't you matt tobin
a browser isn't php so the likes of you can only copy from mozilla
then you claim you own this contribution and try to deny to others
part of your grudge with feodor and roytam is because they didn't want to code for your projects
who wants to code for those who insult them all the time?
sour grapes for you because they sure could do more for pale moon than php expert matt tobin
you can't seem to understand that feodor doesn't have a cult around him
don't project pale moon mentality on him
people come here to support him because they see injustice
roytam also doesn't have a cult, he just posts about releases at msfn and does some support
they are individuals and don't even work with each other that much
they don't herd their users into cult community
if people on msfn hate you then it's because of how you behave
it's not because roytam or feodor told them what to do
probably not many people on msfn even know feodor, he posts so rarely there
The entire basis of such groups is to violate intellecual property laws and trample license agreements in service of selfish and close minded desires.
i know you're saying this so microsoft shuts people up for you
like you threatened here before about how microsoft owns this place
grow up and get real
how the hell you know those who use feodor's browsers don't have proper xp license?
i guess you go blind when people talk about their old hardware that only works well with xp
if msfn has xp embedded updates thread doesn't mean all users there do that
roytam's browser thread is completely separate from xp embedded and has different people
it's your usual bs and slander to say everyone breaks the law there
you can hate xp if you want, that's no reason to spread lies about remaining xp users
on behalf of a group that has admitted they don't care about the rights of the individual
who the hell is this group you keep talking about?
there is individual developer feodor
there is individual developer roytam
there is a forum called msfn where there is one thread by roytam
i think the reason is he prefers to do support there over github
yes a big thread with many parts but only small fraction of msfn members care about this thread
feodor very rarely posts at msfn at all, he does support here on github
then there is a bunch of people who just use their browsers
obviously all have different ideas about individual rights and everything else
this group with single will and idea only exist in your head
maybe you need therapy or medication if you have fixed ideas like that
My personal opinion of him, of you, of anyone including current day Mozilla and of Google has no relevance to this dispute and neither does yours.
yes it does because if you didn't hate him you'd let him fix the issue and that's it
there's nothing malicious about his little omission, all the malice here is from you
you try to screw over all his users for bs vendetta
There wouldn't even BE a Pale Moon as you know it without my contributions
make no mistake my contributions are far beyond any of your understanding
delusions of grandeur detected
if you're so great then why throw up your hands and rebase to later firefox so many times?
you'd be long dead in the water if you didn't keep doing that
who even cares what you lifted from previous firefox when it's all obsolete now
current platform code base is esr52
basilisk is exactly firefox esr52 with some back ports from newer firefox
now you can't rebase any more and you're falling more and more behind
no genius matt tobin to the rescue any more for some reason
more and more sites don't work and what works gets slower and slower
no one these days uses pale moon as their main browser unless they have no choice like those on xp
maybe a handful more who hate both google and mozilla
a dude did parts of web components for you but couldn't finish and got called a traitor right away
that's the kind of gratitude you have to offer
after that of course tons of people rushed to pick up the slack
except they didn't because they're not masochists and you're still dead in the water
people don't even want to work for you for dollar bounty
no surprise you want revenge on feodor who also didn't want to work for you
you go around begging web standards people and webmasters not to innovate because you can't keep up
they send you packing and then you take your anger out on good people who in your delusions betrayed you
It become clear that both group are full of toxic peple. I wach from sideline for long time and we have group who act terribl but right and a group that full of hate.
Revove M.A.T contribution cant be done and deff not before 6 september and no group back down i think so eems like all group are tainted. I no longer trust. So I look into option for future.