loup99/WtWSMS

Issues with some cultures

Closed this issue · 13 comments

Darokrithia commented

As a player, I noticed that for some time there have been minor issues with cultures. Just a few examples that I found slightly immersion breaking from the Iranians: multiple east-Iranians being put in the Iranian culture group, conflicting cultures, and gfx for those cultures (two saka cultures, one with persian_gfx and one with turkish_gfx).

These issues are not found solely in the Iranian group either, afar, for example, is in the seemingly catch-all East-African culture group, when there is a Cushitic group already in existence.

Anyway, I am more than willing to fix this and probably can do so within an hour or less; however, I am not sure how to proceed. (Which is why I put loup99 onto the assignees)

Should I post sources for my changes? I can provide them if need be. Do I need to put something out there to tell you guys what I am doing besides the commit message? I'm new to the team and would like to make sure I am doing things right before I make any changes, be them minuscule or monumental.

-Daro

loup99 commented

These changes are welcome if they can make the cultures more consistent and realistic, but I would appreciate seeing some sources and a list of the changes you need to do.

Darokrithia commented

Sounds good. I will start compiling it ASAP. Where should I put the list of changes + sources?

loup99 commented

Here or in the group forum, doesn't matter for me. Both exist to be used. 🙂

Darokrithia commented

  1. auiones uses german_gfx when other Norsemen use norsegfx. No source, it just seems odd

  2. Migration burgundians also have the same out of place issue. Not a big deal but a bit odd

  3. vidivarii sort of have the same issue, but them being a heterogenous people makes sense as to why ugric is used

  4. Greco-axumite and greco-gothic use the native culture, but greco-persian uses greek graphics

  5. There is also some consistency issue with continental Celts, with some using western gfx and some using Celtic

  6. More consistency, Estonian uses Norse graphics. Not sure why that is though admittedly finno-ugric people are diverse

  7. Not an issue but I just wanted to say I am really happy you use Asian Nenets 👍

  8. Tocharian is in a group called east Anatolian. While it should be on its own, I'm not sure it should be called that. The Tocharian Anatolian relation is vague and they weren't culturally similar even if they were linguistically https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocharian_languages#Comparison_to_other_Indo-European_languages

  9. Azeri should use Persian_gfx or Greek gfx not Arabic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Azerbaijanis

  10. Dahi should be east iranian in culture and use iranian gfx. They are already called Dahi_Scythians They are scythians. I've never seen something call them altaic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahae

  11. All of the gurs (western turks) use Arab gfx when they should use Turkic as they were Turkic ethnically and linguistically as far as I know https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utigurs

  12. Gushi should be put with the Tocharians and use Iranian gfx (probably) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jushi_Kingdom

Okay I have to go but I will continue this list later

Darokrithia commented

  1. Xiongnu should probably be in its own category, and if not, it should go in Altaic, Siberian, or Iranian. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiongnu#Theories_regarding_ethnolinguistic_identity

  2. Similarly, Sinic seems like a garbage taxon with Korean and Vietnamese. I might split it up entirely.

  3. Jurchen should probably go in Altaic

  4. Zaghawa, Kanuri, and Hausa are not Berbers and probably should go in their own category. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hausa_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaghawa_language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanuri_language

  5. Some of the "east Semitic" groups are actually North-West Semitic linguistically, but culturally are successors of the east Semitic Akkadians, so this isn't a big deal

  6. Aramean = Aramaic not sure why you have two cultures. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arameans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_language

  7. Romanian should be moved to Latin culture group

  8. Not sure why old Magyar is Turkish. Shouldn't it be finno-ugric? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_prehistory#Formation_of_the_Magyar_people

Okay, that's enough for now again. I'll add another 10 later

Darokrithia commented

  1. Saka / Sakan culture should be merged with other "saka" culture (see below) and should use Persiangfx https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saka

  2. Indo Scythians: Again, should use Persian gfx https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Scythians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Scythians#/media/File:PazyrikHorseman.JPG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Scythians#/media/File:ManWithCapProbablyScythianBamiyan3-4thCentury.jpg

  3. While the language of the Kushans is not fully understood, they used greek and Bactrian as their main languages and ruled east Iranians. As such I would put them under east-Iranian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kushan_Empire

  4. Amardians are east-Iranian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amardi

  5. While I support Kalash using Iranian gfx they are linguistically Indo-Aryan not Iranian

  6. Sarmatians are East-Iranian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians

  7. Iazyges are Sarmatians and as such also East-Iranian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iazyges

  8. Afghan is again East-Iranian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashto

  9. Saka, as mentioned before This should be fused with the above Sakan culture and is East-Iranian

  10. East African is one big mess as it is a garbage taxon. I'll expand on this bellow. I would split it up. Nilotic peoples are nomadic pastoralists and speak a Nilotic language, while the Swahili are settled, traders. This group does not make sense linguistically nor culturally. I would make a Nilotic group with the Nubians, Nilotic, and Dahu. Afar should go into the already existing Cushitic group. Coptic and Egyptian Coptic should be merged into a single culture and should go in a group of its own. Finally Swahili should be a group of its own. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swahili_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daju_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubian_languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afar_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copts

  11. I might move Hebrew to Northwest Semitic. I see why either could work though

  12. Siberians should use the Meso-american portraits. There are known linguistic and genetic ties between the groups. They also look similar IMO. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ket_people

And here is where I insert another break :)

Darokrithia commented

  1. All of the south-east Asians in this category (as there are two) can be moved into the Tibeto-Burman group (either that or the group should be renamed) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naga_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakhine_people

  2. Not sure why Phyrgians are using slavic gfx https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygia

  3. Not a culture issue, but why are there a bunch of south-east Asian cultures under VIET. Are they used? I have played a lot of this mod but like never see it.

  4. Tibetan can be deleted as we can just use vanilla Tibetan cultures

  5. khotanese should be fused with saka and sakan. tokharian should be fused with tocharian and or sakan

That more or less wraps it up :) I will make a new branch tonight and implement all of this. Hopefully, ya'll like it.

tannerflick4 commented

My replies:

  1. I like the way some look different than others, since Celts were a mix of races and such ethnically.
  2. I prefer Persian for them.
  3. They might be Scythian due to vanilla (i think) indo-scythian having some altaic elements. But I fully agree with changing them over.
  4. Xiongwu are tough to decide upon, but I think Altaic fits more than the others.
  5. Sinic should go the way of the dodo, unless its supposed to be a mix between Korean and Vietnamese.
  6. Ties in with Scythian comment, really not sure on it.
  7. definitely should delete cultures we dont use.

On the Alans and Dahae being settled, im all for it. I dont like the way HL works, but cant get myself to untick it lol. mainly, i dont like how the clans are king tier and head clan is emperor tier. way too high of tiers.

Darokrithia commented

Thanks for the reply @tannerflick4 ! Sadly the way GitHub does lists I cannot easily tell which numbers you meant to reply to. Namely 6, 10, and 11.

Honestly I think there should be more nomad government groups (ie the Dahi and Hephthalites); however, my question was about adding the horde tag (which allows raiding among other things) to those cultures, as they are clearly hordes, but are missing the tag,

loup99 commented

Honestly I think there should be more nomad government groups (ie the Dahi and Hephthalites); however, my question was about adding the horde tag (which allows raiding among other things) to those cultures, as they are clearly hordes, but are missing the tag,

Where did you ask about this? I can't find it anywhere else than here.

Darokrithia commented

In discord. It was a brief one-sentence thing.