Defense speech, in Old Hungarian Unicode standard script doesn't have accents,reasons.
Opened this issue · 14 comments
@marekjez86
@dscorbett refers the following documents:
https://nyelvmuveles.hu/osi-magyar-iras-rovas/tanuljunk-konnyen-rovasirni-koszonet-raduly-janosnak-a-bolcs-megoldasert
https://nyelvmuveles.hu/osi-magyar-iras-rovas/27
https://www.unicode.org/L2/L2011/11242r-n4110r-oldhungarian-adhoc.pdf#page=3
The editor of the nyelvmuveles.hu homepage stated that the submission of Dr. Gábor Hosszú and the submission of Everson-Szelp were doomed to failure.("kudarcra van ítélve") His opinion was that accents are requirements in (in 2012!).
~10 years have passed since then.
Submission of Everson and Szelp proved successful. Books are written, Educational apps can be downloaded from Google Play.
These follow the Everson-Szelp standard, which is not implements accents.
There are some apps and books that contain only minor changes. I think about "x", "y", "w", "qu", "dzs" and "dzs" letters.
The standardizers did not known about the submission: https://www.unicode.org/L2/L2011/11242r-n4110r-oldhungarian-adhoc.pdf#page=3 It was not discussed.
In the response https://www.unicode.org/L2/L2021/21073-script-adhoc-rept.pdf#page=20 received @dscorbett from Unicode says: "this recommendation need not be binding today" ( https://www.unicode.org/L2/L2011/11242r-n4110r-oldhungarian-adhoc.pdf#page=3 ) According to my reading, the document above was withdrawn.
Short and long vowels are well distinguishable as be seen in your font
Old Hungarian long and short vowels
I working on an Old Hungarian spellchecker, I will ignore letters with accents, because those are not required.
@marekjez86 I believe your wisdom. Please close the issue notofonts/noto-fonts#1374 according the previous #419 (comment)
@marekjez86 For us, Hungarians, the word "standard" means "szabvány", which synoym of the following words "előírt", "megszabott", "követendő".
we don't care what the owner of the "nyelvmuveles.hu" and "kiejtes.hu" websites wants.
The Unicode document, referred by @dscorbett ( David Corbett ), has been withdrawn.
I talk about https://www.unicode.org/L2/L2011/11242r-n4110r-oldhungarian-adhoc.pdf#3
As we have warned several times, the owner(s) of "nyelvmuveles.hu" and "kiejtes.hu" is/are frivolous, he/they want(s) reform spelling system of Latin based Hungarian,too, want(s) include "ë", which has no basis.
@tamasbartos I think, the following issues are not supported by unicode documents:
notofonts/noto-fonts#2110 (comment)
notofonts/noto-fonts#2109 (comment)
notofonts/noto-fonts#2063 (comment)
notofonts/noto-fonts#2054 (comment)
notofonts/noto-fonts#2015 (comment)
notofonts/noto-fonts#1983 (comment) this problem is valid, but using with ZWJ-code only, could to be minimalized the problems. If the ligature is prescribed in a valid unicode document, it must to implement it.
notofonts/noto-fonts#1930 (comment)
We need the fair play. If we don't want accents, nor should we ask for anything that is not supported by unicode documents.
And, it is my opinion, need to drop a feedback to unicode as to whether the document has been revoked, which document requires the use of ligatures.
@tamasbartos I think, the following issues are not supported by unicode documents:
googlefonts/noto-fonts#2110 (comment)
googlefonts/noto-fonts#2109 (comment)
googlefonts/noto-fonts#2063 (comment)
googlefonts/noto-fonts#2054 (comment)
googlefonts/noto-fonts#2015 (comment)
googlefonts/noto-fonts#1983 (comment) this problem is valid, but using with ZWJ-code only, could to be minimalized the problems. If the ligature is prescribed in a valid unicode document, it must to implement it.
googlefonts/noto-fonts#1930 (comment)
We need the fair play. If we don't want accents, nor should we ask for anything that is not supported by unicode documents.
And, it is my opinion, need to drop a feedback to unicode as to whether the document has been revoked, which document requires the use of ligatures.
I think, this is true.
@tamasbartos I try to collect valid problems.
Valid problems' issues are:
https://github.com/googlefonts/noto-fonts/issues/2102#issue
notofonts/noto-fonts#2061 (comment)
It will be better, that numbers would be in capital size.
notofonts/noto-fonts#2001 (comment)
notofonts/noto-fonts#1989 (comment)
notofonts/noto-fonts#1984 (comment)
notofonts/noto-fonts#1947 (comment)
notofonts/noto-fonts#1946 (comment)
notofonts/noto-fonts#1944 (comment)
The following issue is critical. No document is specified that the issue reporter would reference.
The Hungarian standards body (Magyar Szabványügyi szervezet) only took over the characters in the unicode core, IEC/ISO also did.
notofonts/noto-fonts#1364 (comment)
@marekjez86 I forgot sign to you the previous comment: #419 (comment)
@marekjez86 @tamasbartos
The more articles I read on the "nyelvmuveles.hu" website, the more I feel that its editors are deliberately writing provocative articles and then teasing a good one.
The "coclusion" of debutes, that the owner of website, András Mészáros is The linguist and The teacher, he knows everything better than anyone.
Links to MKI website's articles don't work. I think it was deleted because of its nonsense. MKI = "Magyarságkutató Intézet", it was founded in the year of 2019. (I can't translate it to English, it's impossible)
For example it raises "problems" on the webpage, such as the fact that the English-speaking announcer mispronounces Hungarian station names on the Budapest metro.
It is criticized by the webpage that the Nikolsburg alphabet has been misinterpreted by some scholars, "because several vowels and consonants disappeared or were pronounced differently in the ancient Hungarian language."
No one knows how Hungarians spoke the ancient Hungarian language! Just we understand, what were written.
The Nikolsburg alphabet is the main find of Old Hungarian letters. On this find appear Old Hungarian letters paired with Latin letters. Without accents!
@marekjez86 I have the feeling that the developers of the noto-fonts project were deceived by referring to the nyelvmuveles.hu website. In an article on that webpage Gábor Hosszú's submission has been dubbed unusable, because of that doesn't use accutes, in an another article Gábor Hosszú's alphabet is the work of a scientist, who works for the MKI. Links to the referred articles of the https://mki.gov.hu/ nowhere work.
@marekjez86 I know well, we made mistakes too, when we asked syllable like ligatures without referring Unicode document.
We didn't know, how the system works.
The articles of the nyelvmuveles.hu everyone appear, whose submission to the Unicode Old Hungarian section was not accepted. The winner, highly supported final standard submitters can only write comments.
Please read and translate all articles on the referred webpage nyelvmuveles.hu by David Corbett, if you don't believe me, and read and translate articles of magyarrovas.hu about standardization.
@marekjez86 Marek, what do you think, how many books were written using, not only about accents? No one. What do you think, how many books and newpappers were written using letters which haven't accents at all? All of them.
We can safely close the spelling problem.
@marekjez86 Why are you ignoring the protests at groups.google.com?
@marekjez86 Thanks for the quick answer! I'm working on the capital size ligatures, but there are several implemented ligatures that must to correct those form. Those are ~10 ligatures. I'll upload casesets with old and prepared version, because of that you can check it. I think, we can working together.
@viktorkiwikovacs Don't fight @marekjez86! Make the uppercase ligatures, when it will be done, we explain clearly, why we protest about accents!
@marekjez86 I don't know why do you believe, that accents or duplication marks are required for writing text with Old Hungarian script. The people who asked for accents never designed a font and never wrote a book with accents. They just want to do the dirty work with you!