Old style figures have been swapped with Lining

Question

Old style figures have been swapped with Lining

m4rc1e opened this issue 7 years ago · 29 comments

m4rc1e commented 7 years ago

This may be pretty disruptive for existing users

@davelab6 I heard you requested this. Shall we go ahead with it?

Answer 1 · 2017-10-26T18:36:18.000Z

Oh please leave the osf the default.

Answer 2 · 2017-10-26T19:16:00.000Z

I absolutely do not agree with this change! Please revert it.

Answer 3 · 2017-10-26T19:49:17.000Z

The Google Fonts policy is for lining tabular numbers to be default, we get a lot of users complaining about 'funny looking' numbers.

Answer 4 · 2017-10-26T21:42:45.000Z

I also realise that Google Fonts needs the family name to be "EB Garamond" whereas @georgd names his family "EB Garamond 12"

Therefore I propose that @octaviopardo sets up the glyphs file so that 2 families are exported, one with old style figures as default with family name "EB Garamond 12" and one with lining tabular figures as default ""EB Garamond" that GF will onboard.

Answer 5 · 2017-10-26T21:44:03.000Z

"we get a lot of users complaining about 'funny looking' numbers."

But in this case, isn't the user wrong?

Answer 6 · 2017-10-26T21:46:14.000Z

Oki, After the release I will upload a new file with OSF as default :) El 26 de octubre de 2017 a las 23:44:06, Tobias Pape (notifications@github.com) escribió: "we get a lot of users complaining about 'funny looking' numbers." But in this case, isn't the user wrong? — You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or mute the thread. Octavio Pardo Virto Graphic Designer /Type Designer C/ Berriozar 21, Oficina 36, 2º piso 31013 Pamplona SPAIN +34 657 106 116 www.octaviopardo.com

Answer 7 · 2017-10-26T22:26:56.000Z

But in this case, isn't the user wrong?

No.

Google Fonts was launched in 2010 with the aim of wildly heterogenous typefaces and no standards, with the idea that we would gather data on what worked and what didn't and then unify in the future. And in 2017, here we are, and this is one of the things that will be unified.

I see the argument that a classical Garamond revival like this would prefer old style figures as defaults.... @octaviopardo did raise a question with me about this when I requested it, and I suggested he check some other garamond defaults to make a more informed decision - and he was surprised to find that the 'gold standard' of garamonds, Adobe Garamond Premiere Pro, does have lining tabular numbers as default.

Answer 8 · 2017-10-26T22:27:38.000Z

After the release I will upload a new file with OSF as default :)

...with family name "EB Garamond 12"? This is possible using instance Custom Parameters, there is some glyphs switcheroo setting for it.

Answer 9 · 2017-10-26T22:33:33.000Z

That s right, but I prefer waiting until Monday to push that alternate version Regarding the issue of typographic correction, I obviously know & understand the reason why a Garamond should have OSF as default. But I also understand the reasons and advantages of a global tool (font) having LT numbers as default so at the end pros know that they can find what they want in the font, because they are pros and know how to activate them, while average users get expected conventional figures. I consider that a quite acceptable scenario. El 27 de octubre de 2017 a las 0:27:42, Dave Crossland (notifications@github.com) escribió: After the release I will upload a new file with OSF as default :) ...with family name "EB Garamond 12"? This is possible using instance Custom Parameters, there is some glyphs switcheroo setting for it. — You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or mute the thread. Octavio Pardo Virto Graphic Designer /Type Designer C/ Berriozar 21, Oficina 36, 2º piso 31013 Pamplona SPAIN +34 657 106 116 www.octaviopardo.com

Answer 10 · 2017-10-26T22:35:45.000Z

Well, I'm just an interested bystander and in no way or no position to correct you on that.

It's just that some parts of typography always struck me as "trust the designer more than the reader". Not overall, but in instances. After all, typecutters shaped our perception of type in the first place.

PS: sometimes it's in the name. "old style" sound always a bit negative to me. I like the German name "Minuskelziffern", translating to 'lowercase figures', and indeed, those figures typically pair better with lowecase letters…
PPS: Sorry for the OT…

Answer 11 · 2017-10-26T22:47:07.000Z

All good, german typography words are cool :)

trust the designer more than the reader

I trust Robert Slimbach ;)

Answer 12 · 2017-10-26T22:47:42.000Z

Granted ;)

Answer 13 · 2017-10-27T08:15:28.000Z

In spanish (and I ve seen it in english reference boosk as well) we also called the OSF lowercase figures, non aligned figures or (this is a cool one although I don t know the origin of the name) “elzeverian figures". When it comes to design indeed you take the reference of values in curves and steams in lc to design those numbers while for the Lining FIgures you look more at caps. That s why the mix better with LC besides the fact that they “swing” around the baseline as the lowercase does. Octavio Pardo Virto Graphic Designer /Type Designer C/ Berriozar 21, Oficina 36, 2º piso 31013 Pamplona SPAIN +34 657 106 116 www.octaviopardo.com

Answer 14 · 2017-10-27T08:26:49.000Z

Sorry for the Off-Topic, but at least it's not that far off from the actual topic here :)

Vollkonrn typeface offers not only lining and old style figures, but also small caps figures. I think it's a cool feature because it covers all scenarios.

Answer 15 · 2017-10-27T08:37:01.000Z

@RGB-es it has those

Answer 16 · 2017-10-27T08:39:16.000Z

side effect of the figure changing thing, fixing… El 27 de octubre de 2017 a las 10:37:32, Marc Foley (notifications@github.com) escribió: @RGB-es it has those — You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or mute the thread. Octavio Pardo Virto Graphic Designer /Type Designer C/ Berriozar 21, Oficina 36, 2º piso 31013 Pamplona SPAIN +34 657 106 116 www.octaviopardo.com

Answer 17 · 2017-10-29T10:43:04.000Z

@octaviopardo I'll be adding a number swapper inside the source files. No need to do this.

Answer 18 · 2017-10-29T11:08:26.000Z

pros know that they can find what they want in the font, because they are pros and know how to activate them

So how would one activate old style figures?

Answer 19 · 2017-10-29T12:59:09.000Z

So how would one activate old style figures?

@vyp By activating the corresponding OpenType tag, which in this case is "onum". [My second off-topic on this thread, but anyway.] On LibO 5.3 and later, you just need to attach to the font name a colon followed by the tag, something like

Font Name:+onum

It's also possible to use these tags (on other ways, though) on html and, of course, XeTeX, LuaTeX and co.

Answer 20 · 2017-10-29T13:11:05.000Z

Thank you @RGB-es. I found that my question was oversoon as I found answers to my question for html (css) and luatex by searching for it. Sorry for the noise, I didn't know it was simple.

Answer 21 · 2017-11-01T23:09:10.000Z

I hesitated about answering on this but I don’t think that you do the users a favor when you remove text figures away from the default position in text fonts. Granted, you found Slimbachs fonts with lining figures as default. But that was a no-brainer because he there followed a house internal policy. Adobe, however, is in a different position than Google Fonts. Adobe’s font users are professionals or other people who use them mainly in tools that enable access to non default glyphs in one way or another. Google Fonts however serves a way bigger and more diverse public, partly relying on tools that don’t come with such possibilities. Users of Google Docs for example will be deprived of text figures. When I published the first version of the font, I put a lot of thought in the question which figures should be the default. Me too, I looked into a lot of other fonts for this decision: Besides older fonts that generally came only with lining figures and had text figures added only later on, text fonts oriented at a broader user base had text figures as default (e.g. Georgia or Hoefler Text). Running text being the main purpose of the font, I decided to go this way – and haven’t got a complaint about it. I don’t see the necessity for this unification. Of course there are users who don’t understand what text figures are. So, you might get rid of those molesting support requests. But there’ll be users who’ll miss them and won’t be able to access them. There’ll be users whose documents break. So, probably more support requests... What else might be a reason for this unification? And speaking of it: are there more of that kind? Am 27.10.2017 um 00:26 schrieb Dave Crossland:

…

But in this case, isn't the user wrong? No. Google Fonts was launched in 2010 with the aim of wildly heterogenous typefaces and no standards, with the idea that we would gather data on what worked and what didn't and then unify in the future. And in 2017, here we are, and this is one of the things that will be unified. I see the argument that a classical Garamond revival like this would prefer old style figures as defaults.... @octaviopardo <https://github.com/octaviopardo> did raise a question with me about this when I requested it, and I suggested he check some other garamond defaults to make a more informed decision - and he was surprised to find that the 'gold standard' of garamonds, Adobe Garamond Premiere Pro, does have lining tabular numbers as default. — You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#13 (comment)>, or mute the thread <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAND8n0oOrTIohi7ciki9GhXhk2KZoRUks5swQcxgaJpZM4QH_yc>.

-- EB Garamond: http://www.georgduffner.at/ebgaramond

Answer 22 · 2017-11-07T20:53:33.000Z

@davelab6 I still don’t agree with this change — for years, we’ve been reading typography books that tell us we should use old style figures in running text and that lament at the same time that a normal user not able to access pro tools can’t do so. With EB Garamond I wanted to provide a font where everybody could use old style figures.

Yet, I see that you don’t want to discuss this so I’ll accept that you want to deliver the fonts with tabular lining features as default. However, as you told this was all about the user I’d prefer the sources to continue with oldstyle figures as default, so yesterday I asked Octavio if it was possible to switch the sources back and use the procedure you proposed for a second font version when you generate the fonts for Google Fonts.

Answer 23 · 2017-12-15T17:32:02.000Z

Once I release the next version I will also produce one version with the figures as they were before!

Answer 24 · 2017-12-15T19:18:36.000Z

@georgd sorry I didn't make time to discuss this. I discussed it with some other projects too, and I'm persuaded that lining proportional figures ought to be the uniform default in the GF collection. I appreciate that you want to have the sources and your distribution have the default numerals as old style, and I'm happy for Octavio to do that as long as the build process for GF automatically swaps the defaults (which is easy to set up in GlyphsApp.)

cc @m4rc1e

Answer 25 · 2017-12-21T19:36:12.000Z

@davelab6 thanks for answering. Please clarify: in the first post you said lining tabular should be default, in your last it's lining proportional. Which one is it now?

@octaviopardo please don't bother with producing a second version. I have thought a lot about it and I came to the conclusion that, although I still think it's stupid to displace the old style figures, I don't think it's worth the troubles with two different versions of the same font.

Answer 26 · 2017-12-22T05:35:57.000Z

I am thinking lining proportion, based on a conversation with David Berlow who recommended that, but I didn't update any documentation yet. I expect to do that documentation review and update early next year.

Answer 27 · 2017-12-22T05:37:07.000Z

re: 2nd version, I appreciate your care for simplicity, I agree this is good. I will work hard to make a good UX for accessing old style figures in places where I can influence :)

Answer 28 · 2018-09-06T12:08:47.000Z

@davelab6 Is it possible to get old style numerals via Google Fonts? I mean…

@import url('https://fonts.googleapis.com/css?family=EB+Garamond:400');
body {
   font: 16px 'EB Garamond', serif;
   font-variant-numeric: oldstyle-nums;
}

But that doesn't work at the moment — you'll still see lining digits.

Answer 29 · 2018-11-29T11:51:12.000Z

https://blog.bramp.net/post/2018/01/21/google-font-features/

AFAICT Google Fonts' distributed fonts does not support OpenType features, nor variants with them activated. You'll have to obtain the release from this repo and serve them yourself.