Vinaya issues
Opened this issue · 18 comments
pli-tv-bu-vb-pc3:2.1.10: "(To be expanded as in previous rule.)" doesn’t belong in definition i.e. un-indent.
pli-tv-bu-vb-pc8:2.4.5: this should on same line as 2.4.4, i.e., delete paragraph break.
The number of the subsections in the Khandhaka does not match the numbering in the table of contents. I am not even sure if this can be fixed!
I fixed the first two, they're simple fixes.
Working on the numbering mismatches, these are caused by improper heading levels for the inserted headings. I should be able to fix these, but they need careful attention. I'm working on this now.
Meanwhile, in some cases we see an empty inserted heading, eg. at pli-tv-kd1:25.14.3.0. I guess this is a place where you once wanted an inserted heading then changed your mind? If so, at some point we should probably review them and remove them. They just clutter the code.
Noting a few unusual cases here.
- In Kd 15 and Kd 22, there are no headings in the root text, all are inserted, so they all remain
<h2>(since they are first-level subheadings). This of course won't affect any numbering. - Kd 16 is truly wild, the numbering in the root text restarts twice, so you've used point numbers on the
<h2>in the translation. Currently the ToC generator on the site is chewing these up a bit so we can fix that. Also, the first section ends with the first bhanavara, but the second section does not, so that's weird. - Also the Inserted head "Regulations on dwellings, furniture, etc." was in the Pali rather than the translation, so I have shifted it.
- In Kd 16 and 17 the translation lacks numbers on the first heading. Actually, checking them, most of the chapters lack the first number (Kd 1 has it), so I will leave this for you to fix.
- Kd 17 also has the same system of point numbers on
<h2>. What I found out in this and Kd 16 is that the original MS edition uses the same system, so I have corrected this in the Pali files.
These issues have been fixed and should appear next time the site is updated, we should double-check them then.
I find the system of point numbers on subheadings in Kd 16 and Kd 17 inelegant. It should really be either:
- simple numbers in a straight sequence, as it is everywhere else, or else
- introduce a further heading level. That is, we'd insert
<h2>headings and shift all the existing ones down to<h3>.
Similar problems are encountered in Pvr 4, and maybe elsewhere.
The disadvantage of solution (1) is that it would mean the numbers in the Pali and translation would be different (although we could just change the numbers in the Pali to match). It also means that the structure is less explicitly articulated, although I don't really think that's a problem. No-one really cares, they just need to find what they want to read. Anyway, far more complex chapters have straight sequential numbers (Kd 1) and no-one's complained.
The disadvantage of solution (2) is that we'd have to add more inserted headings and segment numbers. And you'd have to tell me what the text for the "translated" headings would be. Not a big deal, but some complexity added there.
what do you think?
I think I would prefer the second solution, even if it adds some complexity. I'd be happy to have all the main headings moved down to the <h3> level. Personally I find the current headings on the large side, although, admittedly, it is a minor matter.
It would be natural, I think, to then number all these <h3> headings, while leaving all other headings unnumbered. This numbering structure should be sufficient for people to find their way, whereas the different levels of heading would make it easier for the reader to integrate the various textual elements. And actually, even Kd 1 has one subheading (14.1), as does Kd 2.
And yes, the first heading should be numbered throughout. I'll sort it out.
By the way, there are a couple of missing headings in Kd 1. I just saw them no.
Add the heading "Bathing" after segment https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-kd1/en/brahmali?lang=en&layout=plain&reference=main¬es=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin#25.11.8
Add the heading "The dwelling" after segment https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-kd1/en/brahmali?lang=en&layout=plain&reference=main¬es=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin#25.14.2
ok no worries, let's do it.
And actually, even Kd 1 has one subheading (14.1), as does Kd 2.
For Kd 2, do you mean the heading for "definitions" here? https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-kd2/en/brahmali?lang=en&layout=sidebyside&reference=main¬es=sidenotes&highlight=false&script=latin#3.4.1
Personally I find the current headings on the large side, although, admittedly, it is a minor matter.
Please ignore this if you like, but just to let you know how this works if you're interested!
- tl;dr I agree and will adjust the sizes on the web.
Now, the heading levels are determined by document structure. That means we don't say, "I want a heading of this size here", we say, "this heading is an nth level" (eg. sub-sub-heading) and then the appropriate size is applied.
- in HTML, the top level heading on a page is
<h1>, the next is<h2>, and so on. - in LaTeX, the top level heading is
\chapter, the next is\subheading, then\subsubheadingetc.
You have to represent to document structure correctly, which means you can't skip heading levels.
This structure is adapted for different environments. For example, on a web page for a single Vinaya rule, the main title of that page is the top level heading (<h1>). But if the same page is then included in, say, an EPUB, then the top level heading of the entire book is now <h1> and the heading for that rule is bumped down to maybe <h3>. We spent ages working out all this stuff, because the structure of each collection is subtly different.
When we did this we also had to adapt between two very different languages. In HTML, the third level heading is <h3>, but in LaTeX the same thing is \subsubheading. Anyway, a bit of massaging and you can get what you want.
Now, when considering how to style headings, there are many possibilities. But in our unique case, we found that we need a styling system that can cope with up to seven levels. Yes, that's right! It's a lot; in a sane environment you'd normally not want to use more than three.
With that many levels, you can't do things like use italics or bold to distinguish headings, as you can only play that card once. The only real option is to use size. And for that you need enough to be able to visually distinguish the sizes at every level.
So that lead me to look into LaTeX. Basically it uses a 1.2 font scale, AKA minor third.
So if the base font size is 10, the first level is 12, the second 14.4, and so on. The same scale is applied in making font sizes smaller, eg. for footnotes. The gap in size between the base font and the heading then depends on the heading level: obviously a sub-heading is bigger than a sub-sub-heading.
For the PDF editions, I just use the native LaTeX font scale, I don't mess with that at all. It's pretty deeply baked into LaTeX so not easy to change reliably.
On the web, I used the same font scale at desktop sizes, but at mobile sizes I reduce it to 1.125, AKA major second scale. In fact I have been thinking of dumping the 1.2 scale on the web, as I agree it's too big. The issue is that, because the heading levels are adjusted, the same heading that would appear at say 12 in print would be maybe 17.28 on the screen.
Now you know more than you ever wanted about heading sizes!
I would prefer the second solution,
Okay, but one thing I'll ask you to do is to check the remainder of the Vinaya, especially the Parivara, to see if there are any similar cases. Most of the patimokkha rules should be okay, as they're short, but it's worth just ensuring we don't have something similar in the long rules, too.
Oh, also I need English titles for the added headings.
Meanwhile I'll get started with this.
By the way, there are a couple of missing headings in Kd 1. I just saw them no.
I've added these.
Okay, so I have now added the new heading levels to Kd 16 and Kd 17.
- all previous
<h2>are now<h3> - three new
<h2>headings inserted in each chapter - I have named them simply, "the first section", etc.
Imma close this issue, please reopen if any more work needs doing.
For Kd 2, do you mean the heading for "definitions" here? https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-kd2/en/brahmali?lang=en&layout=sidebyside&reference=main¬es=sidenotes&highlight=false&script=latin#3.4.1
Yes, but I realise now that that is an inserted heading, which I believe are treated differently. Do you have more control over these, or are they equally fixed by the scaling conventions? And they are all in italics to distinguish them from the native headings, right?
Thanks for the write-up about heading sizes. I can begin to imagine the amount of work involved.
Most of the patimokkha rules should be okay, as they're short, but it's worth just ensuring we don't have something similar in the long rules, too.
Right. I've realised I should number the Pātimokkha rules. It's nice to know which number it is as you see the main heading. There are some exceptions, however. With the pārājikas, the number is written into the actual heading, and so an additional numeral at the beginning seems superfluous. Moreover, pārajika 1 begins after the intro, and it is less attractive to suddenly have a "1." in the middle of the text. Also, I will not number the aniyata, because they too have the number written into the title.
There are some sub-numbers for the pārajikas, but it's pretty patchy. For instance, pārājika has titles and numbers for each of the origin stories, but none of the other pārājikas do. For consistency, I will leave the numbers out for all of them. The pārājikas have numbers for the uddāna-gāthā and the vinīta-vatthu, the former has the number of the parājika followed by a full stop and then a "1", where the latter has the same but followed by a "2". I find this quite pointless and even outright confusing, and so I will leave it out. Whether we should remove it from the Pali, I will let you decide.
The levels of the headings look good to me.
The first 5 saṅghādisesas have similar numbers for the uddāna-gāthā and the vinīta-vatthu, which I will leave out for the same reason. For the rest of the saṅghādisesas there is only the main heading and then inserted headings. they look fine.
I've had a quick look at some of the longer pācittiyas (1, 2, 3, and 8), and they look good.
I will get back to you about the Parivara.
Okay, so I have now added the new heading levels to Kd 16 and Kd 17.
all previous
are now
three newheadings inserted in each chapter
I have named them simply, "the first section", etc.
I will be able to update this in bilara, right? Actually, I can see they are already there! I guess bilara draws directly from the bilara-data.
Last but not least, thank you!
And the pāṭidesanīyas are similar to the pārājikas and the aniyatas in that the rule number is in the name, and so will not add any numeral.
While I am at it, I just discovered that there is no Pali in bilara for the last six adhikraṇasamathadhammas. It's there on SuttaCentral, but not in bilara. Not sure what's going on!
Please also see the comment immediately preceding this one.
OK, so the third added heading in Kd 16 (segment 15.1.0.1) would be better placed after segment 11.4.10. If we do it this way, it will follow the bhaṇavāra structure, which makes it nice and neat and means we have natural headings at our disposal.
Kd 17 is good.
Do you have more control over these, or are they equally fixed by the scaling conventions? And they are all in italics to distinguish them from the native headings, right?
They are headings just like any other, so subject to the same scale. They have an extra class so they can be styled, to which I apply italic.
While I am at it, I just discovered that there is no Pali in bilara for the last six adhikraṇasamathadhammas. It's there on SuttaCentral, but not in bilara. Not sure what's going on!
Thanks for the alert, there was a data issue with this, I have fixed it and it is now present:
https://bilara.suttacentral.net/translation/pli-tv-bu-vb-as1-7_translation-en-brahmali
the third added heading in Kd 16 (segment 15.1.0.1) would be better placed after segment 11.4.10. If we do it this way, it will follow the bhaṇavāra structure
Makes sense, I have added this.
Again I'll close the issue but please reopen if anything needs doing, or just start a new issue.
Thanks for the alert, there was a data issue with this, I have fixed it and it is now present:
And the same problem recurs for the nuns.
OK, so now to the Parivāra. It's mostly looking good, but there are few things to iron out. To get a single sequence of numbers without the decimal system for subchapters, I propose and have largely implemented the following. Just to be clear, I tend to agree with. It looks too much like a thesis or scientific paper with all the decimals. In fact, even one number is often too much.
Section 1.1 + 1.2 + 2.1 + 2.2: here I will remove the number for the vaggas, but retaining them for each rule class.
In pvr3, the first number, “1”, is for the summary section. The next section, which has thirteen subsections, starts with “2.1”, then ”2.2” … “2.13”. To make the single number idea work, I’ve removed the first “1”, and then removed the initial “2” for the thirteen subsections. I hope this is acceptable. Should the Pali segments be changed?
At pvr4, I have, again, removed the 4s, just leaving the number after the full stop. We then have five section, with an unnumbered introductory section.
This needs your attention, please:
Segment pli-tv-pvr1.14:0.4 reads “1.4 Adhikaraṇavāra” instead of “1.14 Adhikaraṇavāra”; and we have the parallel problem at pli-tv-pvr1.15 and pli-tv-pvr1.16.
Segment pli-tv-pvr2.11:14:0.4 reads “2.10 Vipattivāra” instead of “2.11 Vipattivāra”.
So now the Khandhakas. Here are some observations and questions.
In Kd 3 there is a heading class called “inserted-heading help-heading”. It is either <h2> or <h5>, with both <h3> and <h4> missing. How can that be? At Kd 15, by contrast, all the “inserted-heading help-heading” are <h2> and <h3>.
I’ve removed a couple of more decimal numbers, one at Kd 1 and one at Kd 5. The subheadings are sufficient on their own. It looks better.
There are more decimal numbers at Kd 11, quite a few in fact, and also at Kd 12-14. I’ve removed them all.
Kd 16 now looks nice! The only problem is at the beginning of the third bhāṇavāra (12.1.0.1) where there is an inserted heading, but no corresponding heading in the Pali. It would natural to number this heading. Since the numbering system in the translation is no longer in sync with the Pali numbering, I am wondering whether it would be OK to insert a number here, even without a corresponding number in the PaIi text. What are your thoughts, please?
There is a similar in Kd 20 case after the first bhāṇavāra (8.1.14). Actually, in this case it is probably best left as is, because there are no further numbers in this section.
That's all! I've now been through all the headings. Over to you.